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RECAP
Sophia Lee wants you to believe all journalists aren’t corrupt. In an age of social media, public outrage, and clickbait, it can be hard to find hope in journalism. Yet, through Sophia’s work at WORLD Magazine, she and others are seeking to embody redemptive journalism, in telling stories that matter and impact others while keeping the dignity of those they’re covering in the crosshairs of all they say, write, and do. In this episode of the CFWLA Podcast, Sophia shares about the folly of her career drivenness, her own battles with perfectionism, and how God has ministered to her in the ways she helps raise media literacy on oft-controversial topics like homelessness and immigration.
Sophia Lee is a senior reporter for World Magazine, a national evangelical publication. Over the last six years, she's covered a multitude of topics such as mental illness, Hollywood, homelessness, immigration, and abuse in the church. She also writes a weekly column called "Sophia's World" for the World Magazine website.
QUOTABLE
On Doing Journalism in the Public Square: (3:45-4:42)
“People think that journalism is all about being objective, but that’s not true. There really isn’t genuine objectivity or no bias in journalism. There is always a bias. Even choosing to cover a Pride Festival or look at it from a certain perspective presents a certain angle, and interviewing certain people already reveals that person’s worldview. So for me, coming from a Christian worldview, it’s in stark contrast to the secular worldview. A lot of the secular publications have a certain worldview. For me, as a journalist, with a Christian worldview that’s rooted in what the BIble says, there are going to be some challenges ahead.”
On Navigating Skepticism as a Journalist: (21:00-21:55)
“For me, I am never ever shocked by the depth of human sin. Even if it’s someone who’s a highly-respected Christian leader. I am never shocked by what he or she did in the dark because the BIble is very clear about sin. The bible is very clear that we have an enemy, and the bible is very clear that the world is unjust and filled with brokenness and suffering until Jesus Christ comes back. But there you go: until Jesus comes back. But for me, as much as I am not shocked by people’s sins and darkness, I am also never shocked by the ability to be redeemed.”
On the Ongoing Battle with Pride: (39:29-40:03)
“I can’t just rest on my testimony many years ago. I still have to struggle with my pride. That didn’t completely die. I’m still a human being. So I still daily struggle with trying to bring glory to God and focusing on the glory of God and trying to live out my mission as healthily and obediently as I can.”
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcription for the Faith + Work LA Podcast is done by AI software, which will occasionally include typos and other misspellings.
Sophia Lee
I am never ever shocked by the depth of human sin. Even if it's someone who is a highly respected Christian leader, I'm never shocked by what he or she did in the dark because the Bible is very clear about sin, the Bible is clear that we have an enemy. The Bible's very clear that the world is unjust and filled with brokenness and suffering unto Jesus Christ comes back. But there we go on to Jesus Christ comes back. For me, as much as I'm not shocked by people's sins, and darkness. I'm also never shocked by the ability to be redeemed.
Gage Arnold
Hello, and welcome to the Faith and Work LA Podcast, a narrative effort from the Center for Faith and Work Los Angeles that lifts up stories of everyday Christians impacting Los Angeles through their work. My name is Gage Arnold, and I'll be your host. In this episode, we hear from Sophia Lee. Sophia is a senior reporter for World Magazine, and she's based in Los Angeles. She graduated from the University of Southern California with degrees in print and digital journalism and East Asian Languages and Cultures when she's interned at the Los Angeles Times, and the Chicago Tribune, before her current role, a World Magazine and Sophia wants you to believe that all journalists aren't corrupt CNN The age of social media public outrage and clickbait. It can be hard to find hope in journalism. Yeah, through Sofia's work at World Magazine, she and others are seeking to embody redemptive journalism, redemptive storytelling and telling stories that matter and impacting others while keeping the dignity of those they're covering in the crosshairs of all they say right, and do in this episode of the faith and work la podcast Sofia shares about the folly of here for career-driven this, her own battles with perfectionism, and how God has ministered to her in the way she helps raise media literacy and on-oft controversial topics like homelessness and immigration. We're honored to have Sophia joining us and we hope you enjoy the conversation. So as we began I want to ask your question that I've asked a couple of guests that we've had in the past on the podcast, which is just to take me. And we heard a little bit about your sort of career story on the front end, but kind of in your own words, could you give me like a shortened version of like, what has your career to look like so far? Where did you start? Did you always want to be a journalist? And then how did you get to where you are? Right now with your work with World magazine?
Sophia Lee
Okay, well, um, I did not always want to be a journalist, but I knew that I've always loved writing. And I've always been really interested in issues and people. Um, when I first I mean, when you are in school, you start having all these dreams about who you want to be. And I wanted to be a lot of things. I wanted to be the president of the United States because I offer proximity Want to be the Supreme Court Judge because again, proximity to power. Um, I wanted to be a chef because I really love food. I want to be an artist because I like being creative. It but then I in high school, I started writing for my school newspaper. And I realized that, wow, as a journalist, you actually get to talk to all of these people. You get to learn things all the time. And the best part is they get to write about it all. So he kind of ties all my love and my interest together. And so when I went to college, I majored in print journalism during a time when most print journalists were being laid off. But and a lot of my fellow classmates actually dropped out of the major because they realized there's no there's not much of a chance to get a career in journalism at that time. But I kept at it because I am, I was very optimistic that I am brilliant enough to get a job. And honestly, I really just wanted to work for a big publication because I have an ego and I wanted to work for a place where the name itself is a brand. And people recognize the brand. So, you know, I wanted to work for wall street journal or the New York Times. And I interned in some of the big publications. In college, I interned for Los Angeles Times, and then, right after college, I interned for the Chicago Tribune. But at that time, when the first time I worked with Chicago Tribune, the first three, my editor wanted me to write was to cover the pride festival and not just cover it but he said I want there's an NGO like We want you to write about how it's much more family-friendly now so that all family and small children can go and attend and celebrate. Celebrate LGBT identity, you know, and as a Bible-believing Christian, obviously, that was men. That was not an easy story for me to cover, especially given your angle. And right off the bat, I kind of felt like wow, like this is this is not going to be easy for me to stand true to my faith and my convictions while writing what why? Because Jonathan is failed out because people think that journalism is all about being objective. But that's not true. There's no jury really even genuine objectivity or no bias in journalism. There is always a bias you When choosing to carve it an upright festival, even choosing to look at it from a certain perspective and right from a certain angle in an interview, particular people that already reveals a lot of that person's worldview. So me coming from a Christian worldview, it is very much in stark contrast to a secular worldview. And you have to understand that a lot of the secular publications, obviously they have a certain worldview, we all have a certain worldview. And so for me as a journalist, a with a Christian worldview that's rooted in what the Bible says during are going to be some challenges ahead. Um, yeah, at the same time, my ego was super big. So I really wanted to get a job with Chicago Tribune. I mean, I was I graduated and all of that, however, s s. At that time, they were actually just laying off people. You While I was an intern there, they're laid off more than a dozen people and, and, and so they said, Well, we don't have a place to hire you, but we can keep you as an intern and pay you $6 and 50 cents per hour. And I said, No, I have my fair. Yeah. So at that time, though, I'm World Magazine, which is a evangelical national publication. They were interested in me because I had interned for them throughout my, my senior year in college, and they already had a job offer for me right after I graduated, but I kind of held off on that because I had never heard of Vogue magazine until I said it working for them. Um, and they were just I guess I just really wanted to work for a publication that's well known. But then because I had no other choice I work for will magazine and I'm still with will magazine Six years later and the reason is no not because have no choice but because I love working for Christian magazine and not just because that it's not like Christianity Today we'll Madison is if you read it it really the format's exactly almost like Time magazine on Newsweek. We report big news we report on the refugee crisis we report on, you know, the drought in California we report on what's happening. All the other chaos that's happening in the White House and Congress, we report an order this thing that every other secular publication reports on, but what we do we say we do it from a biblical perspective because we believe that God cares not just about what's happening inside the church, or issues that somehow is connected to Christie But God cares for everything that's happening in the world that he created. So, but as I mentioned, journalism is not truly objective. So we say we have biblical objectivity. I said we observe and analyze what's happening in this world. And then we go back to the Bible. So what does the Bible have to say about this? God's heart in this and in some, in some issues? It's not really that clear. No. Mm-hmm. Really try our best to report from our faith. And I love that because it keeps me grounded in scripture. And I honestly know my own proclivities, I think if I had gone and worked for a big name, secular paper, I probably would have left it off. I would have loved to challenge it. of being a journalist in a big-name publication, however, I think I would have been so prone to wander. And I think in God's grace, he kept me to work for a Christian publication because he really wants me to be dependent on him and constantly ask, okay, I'm talking to this person, I am reporting on this issue. Man, this is really tough, but what does worse God's heart in this? What is the contents of my prayer for this? And, and I love it when I write something and people respond, thank you that now I know how to pray for this person. Now I know how to pray for this issue. And I just realized like this, what a right actually has eternal consequences. That gives me a lot of purposes and into things that I do. And personally, it's been beneficial because he has grown my knowledge of the Scripture, but he has always grown my understanding of God's heart. And when the more you get to know about God's heart, the more you fall in love with him, right? So it really has been so tremendously beneficial to my own personal relationship with God, and also my sense of purpose and mission as a generalist.
Gage Arnold
Hmm. I love that. Thanks for sharing that I find your comments on true objectivity and the illusion of it as really important. I mentioned to you before we hopped on in an official manner that I was a journalist in my undergrad and I've had to wrestle with that similar tension. And what does it look like to honor someone's story and to within the little purview that we have to be able to tell it in the truest way possible that we can? And while also recognizing we're going to have biases, and trying to even name them when they're there, I think can be a beautiful good, right and helpful thing. And I also appreciated the I mean, you touched on this earlier, but in your career wondering, of thinking through wanting to be the president and wanting to be a shadow, all these other aspects is that this notion of like power, and how, in, in the digital world that we live in, there's a lot of opinions and words that are shared. And it seems like you have really recognized that words matter, and specifically, the words of our leaders, and the words of our reporters and those who are closest to our leaders really matter and really impact how people live their lives. And that's, maybe that sounds sort of like, Well, duh, you paid any attention. You know, everybody reads the news. Everybody knows we're impacted by that. But I mean, I think if you really let that sink in, it really adds a layer of importance to the work that you and other journalists do. Because they're the words that people say, especially those in power, have a trickle-down effect and really do affect what people's lives look like
Sophia Lee
Right? Like what's the say, the pen is sharper than the sword. Words have so much weight and influence. It can change a person's, you can transform a person, right, can transform perception and does transform a person's actions. And remember what I said about like I want to be in proximity to me power. Being a choice is actually a very powerful position. And that that comes with a lot of consequences. And also a deep sense of responsibility. I really have to be careful about what I write and how are things. That's why this is something that I pray all the time for myself. And it's that God's given me wisdom and discernment. I really my job requires so much discernment. And not to say no telling what is right or wrong, but also what is better from the good What is worse from the bad party, differentiate on a diet and really be able to see the nuances. Yeah, at the same time really capture a truth because you think that truth is oh is just a set of facts. It's that simple, but really, the truth can be very elusive. Especially when the government may be like the government saying something contrary seeing something and those people powerful voices. And some of them are, are the gatekeepers to inflammation. And I am the gatekeeper to inflammation and, and, and it's actually not that easy to, to realize what truth is. And so sometimes I really just pray to God like you need to tell me like revealed to me. What is the truth here when people are telling me conflicting things like just open my eyes open my ears to be able to see and hear your truth.
Gage Arnold
Mm-hmm. How have you managed to discern though because it's not that that sounds very, very confusing and I think Yeah, to some degree everybody at least has an idea that there are times when you get conflicting reports. You know, government leaders may be saying one thing other people in government may be saying another thing that people may be saying another thing and it can be really hard to decipher. It feels very grim. And not very black and white. What does discernment look like for you in terms of figuring out how to seek the truth and to tell to name what's true? While it's really messy and really hard to often figure out?
Sophia Lee
I wish that was a nice way of saying, like explaining how to have discernment. It's like, I mean, obviously, knowing the Bible in and out, reading it line by line by line and then reading the whole context behind each chapter in each book, really knowing the Bible because that's how God reveals his character and his heart, right? What was the practice as a journalist, you'd have to go out, go out on the ground to where whatever is happening and talk to people and talk to as many people as possible from different people have different perspectives, go out and see for yourself what's happening and, and do a lot of research, a lot of reading and having an open trying to try to keep an open mind? Yeah, for example, like, you know, when I first started reporting on the border crisis, Noah's Flood, thousands of people were coming out with migrant caravans, right through Central America through Mexico, and then and then coming to us out of the water and then trying to come into the US to ask for asylum. And when this was happening, I was reading news on this. And I was just getting more and more confused, the more I read, because I was like, Okay, here are these people from I mean, from the President's side, saying that the invaders do you're entitled people demanding to enter the US and then there are Some other news reports that say, Oh no, these are vulnerable populations coming because they're fleeing persecution and poverty and all of that. And then I was kind of confused about what's really happening. So I thought well then I should go down during my setup and report and what's happening because my application at that time wasn't really doing any underground reporting on it. So went down and I thought I would just go down for I mean, go down to Tijuana across the border to Tijuana one time and write a story that's it. But then I ended up going more than a dozen times I even had like two taxes went down to our pass and went on to waters and, and I kept hoping to go down again and again again because the more went and the more I realized that this is more complex. Yes, there are. There are human traffickers. Yeah. Charles's mother's there. Do your drop traffic was an audit that your director tells like you're going through our borders, and a lot of and a lot of, but then there's also extra downloads, people are genuine asylum seekers seeing extreme poverty or persecution, prosecution of domestic violence, drunk gang activity and audit time. Yeah, the same time you somehow connected to another smuggling, like the drug test was smuggling them in so that they can cross the border and seek asylum with Border Patrol. So this is so many factors. Yeah. And I would not have been able to really discern what the truth is here if I had not done my due diligence in going down there and talking to people and not just doing it one time at but again, and again, again, just trying to fat chat and very quiet Everything that we're hearing and seeing. So, yes, Derman. It's not just sitting on my cell phone setting to pray and just think about it. Like so. So putting that into action.
Gage Arnold
Yeah, it's sort of holding, holding both intentions. Right. So knowing the story in the character of God and what God is how to use and being able to, to know that well, but also being willing to work diligently to actually find out what's happening on the ground and knowing that that requires more than just a knee jerk reaction or maybe just following your hunch. Like, and just assuming that that's the case. But really sort of immersing yourself in the story. Yeah. To be able to tell it well, and certainly the some of the best stories that I've read, just in general I mean, they can be magazine stories, they can be news reports, etc. are the ones where the report Really embeds themselves and really seeks to understand, not just on behalf of those who will be reading what they're reading, but for themselves, they really immerse themselves in, in the, in the story to figure out what's actually happening and the separate sort of write, what what's fact from fiction. I'm curious about how. So one of my experiences as journalists is that they can be a little cynical. That's been your experience, maybe not all the time at World Magazine, but that that's tended to be a trademark of at least journalists that I've overlapped or some journalists that have overlapped with. And it seems like that is a break off of maybe an original good thing, which is healthy skepticism, which I know is certainly something It probably drives you and your work. And so how have you seen both of those things interplay between one another? So healthy skepticism versus cynicism? Is that attention that you ever experience in your work or do you see others that?
Sophia Lee
Oh, to be honest, understand why a lot of choices become very cynical, especially when you are kind of in the frontlines observing and writing about human misery and human sin over and over and over again because we need an unbreakable field with wretched sinners. Um, and especially like when you report in, for example, like politics and things don't seem to change. Here's, I would say personally for me I'm never ever shocked by the depth of human sin. Even if it's someone who is this highly respected Christian leader, I'm never shocked by what he or she did in the dark, because the Bible is very clear about sin. The Bible is very clear that we have anatomy. And the Bible is very clear that the world is unjust and filled with brokenness and suffering until Jesus Christ comes back. But Dare you go on to Jesus Christ comes back. For me, as much as I'm not shocked by people's sins, and darkness. I'm also never shocked by the ability to be redeemed into a transform and also always have that hope. That we are still living in a tension between is happening and what will happen. Hmm. So knowing that there is a future of glory and that there is total redemption coming, and a restoration of what this world is supposed to be what our relationship with God is supposed to be what our relationship with each other is supposed to be. What just is true looks like all of those, like I have to pee in my hope in what will happen even if it is not happening right now from what I see. And even if things seem to be getting worse from a certain perspective. Hmm, yeah.
Gage Arnold
Yeah, I think that's such a beautiful way to put that into reckoning reason with pretty hard reality, especially for those who are on the front lines and surely are Probably you're experiencing some compassion fatigue to some degree of just even getting in journalism for the sake of the common good of saying, I want to put myself on the front lines so that I can let others know what's going on so that they can prepare accordingly or know what's going on and help to make Be the change that they want to see in the world. All right, but then in doing so, it does take a cost. And so I imagine that sort of in what you're describing, it can feel really hopeless for some people who don't have an anchor of saying, Man, the world is really messed up. The human experience is a really tough one. Regardless of maybe what you're as, okay, receiving text messages. It No You're good. You're good. Yeah, it can just be really hard regardless of your, your background, to reckon with what it's like to be a human person into an experience to be sinned against and to sin against others. And to see that blown up on a large scale, especially when you're a journalist. But you're, you're offering a bit of hope to people, though, and the way that you live in the way that you posture. And the way you tell stories is that you have a hope that's greater than the messiness that you're seeing modeled in the world. And yet you're not surprised by that. Like you're not putting your hope and saying, well, man can stoically just think about all the problems of the world and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. And you reckon that there's, there's a deeper issue there? And I Yeah, sure. I mean, it sounds like you are just based on the way that you're You're reasoning and living into the role that you have now. But I think that's so important. And something that regardless of your job title, per se, is that we all experience brokenness in all of our jobs in some way, shape, or form, and how we respond to that. Maybe not. And we're not to say the perfect thing all the time, or we're not, we're not going to nail it and be perfect every time but certainly in the ways that we live, just in the midst of in response to that brokenness, if we have a defeated posture versus a hopeful posture, or a reason, hope, a hopeful posture that shows people about the character of Christ just as much as really evangelizing or you know, like a more formal way. You're still kind of testifying to the far kingdom. That is to come.
Sophia Lee
Yeah.
Gage Arnold
Well, you've mentioned a couple of times about Like your faith and this mentality that like World magazine has helped to kind of cultivate through your work, which I think is really cool. And I would love it if you could just give me a little snippet of maybe what faith has looked like for you in your life and what your faith journey. You don't have to necessarily go through all the ins and outs but even just a Yeah, a short snippet of how you've wrestled with faith and Christianity and what that's looked like, in your own life.
Sophia Lee
Well, I am a pastor's kid, and not an end, not just a pastor's kid. I'm also a missionaries kid. So I have both a PK and an Mk. And oh, yeah, so there are a lot of challenges to being both an MK and a pk. Because you are, you have by no choice of your own. You are raising the family that is dedicated to service to God and to people and when you a child with absolutely no spiritual maturity ever um you are still in a way pressure to portray a life of victory I suppose like that is honorable to God and your parent’s service and even if like I wasn't as a child and that consciously feeling that project I was subconsciously stiffening it and being raised in a Christian hospital from the from very young. It is very hard to at some point to detangle your own person of faith away from your parent’s faith. You know to stop piggybacking off your parent’s relationship with God and forming your own and has been challenging for me because, since young I, I was forced to go to church, even though I didn't do and we were in church like all the time. You know, like we were the first funder and the last to leave, then and now and then, you know, we go into like 443 or four times a week. Um, and even as a teenager, I became a youth leader, you've needed to have a youth pastor, and then I was the pianist because we would have a pianist. I was in service then and I mean, checking all the boxes to being a super Christian is my own faith was not I think I was confused by mountains faith, what I truly believed and what my parents told me and because I respect and my parents so much, that has been reflected on how I love God, I love God because I love my parents. I respect a bit of God because of my parents. And, and when I was in high school, you know, I was like 16 I started developing anorexia. And that was one. Before then I never really knew what it meant to suffer. And I never really knew what it meant to be so weak. Because I was always so idealistic and ambitious, and I seriously thought I was the smartest person in the world. I thought it was brilliant. I thought I was so great. And I was going to do great things and conquer the world for Jesus Of course. Of course, I see honestly for myself. I love to see my name glorified. No, it was all my dream That was my dream. And that produces a sort of personality desperate fascistic also very self-critical, very, very self-critical and I think that may have played a part in why I developed anorexia. During a great uprising time of my age No, when a time when I'm supposed to bloom and become a woman, not like that I was secretly starving myself. Avoiding being at home so I can hide in the library for hours so that I can avoid meals, exercising like crazy, like hours a day. Um, and then, and then I went to college and I went to the top, my top choice college, my university I've been wanting to go since I was young. Basically a full ride, huh? I dropped out because they forced me to drop out because I was I weighed like 60 pounds down and I had to be hospitalized. So like I went through a long period may be over five, five to six years basically just losing everything was product lost my health I lost all my friends I lost my ability to go to college and have a Korea I was I was nothing like I couldn't even eat even a baby can eat and do that I couldn't climb up the stairs without holding on to the readings because I was that skinny and lost all my muscles. I even lost that flash on my ear looks that's how skinny I was. And I was just staying at home basically just waiting for death I suppose. Um, and honestly medically I don't even know how I survived because I was weighing 52 pounds at no my heights 560 That was my, my, my days, many days for many years. So thinking about what I'm supposed to eat next, or what I'm not supposed to eat next how much I can exercise. And I at that time I really kind of just realized like, I am just flesh and blood and even this life that I don't cherish is not my own. Hmm. Um, I think that was the moment when God really stripped me of all my pride in who I think I am, and what I think I have to offer. And yet at the same time, he preserved my life. And I think I was very confused at that time. Like why God just didn't let me die. And take me away so that my parents can stop suffering. Look at my suffering. Hmm. Um, but somehow God is priests of my life. And then I was like, then Guess My life has to have some sort of purpose must have some sort of meaning that he wouldn't just let me go. And I think that was really that time went in utter and complete humility, and also complete submission because I had nothing else to give God and nothing to clean off my own. I really, really, for the first time, experienced or understood God's grace and understood God's mercy and compassion and understood God's got bad love, that he would love and hold on to a like a stretch, and yeah, he really didn't start out that way. I think I think that was my that was something I really needed to go through. Because I shudder to think how I would have been like without having gone through that Went to the College of my choice and got a great job maybe, and I really don't know where I will be if I had gone that way. The reason also why I can do the work I do So join us right now is because I understand what it means to suffer. Not just that not just like blind suffering but understand what it means to really suffer because of my own inability, and my own own weakness and my own sin and my own human flesh and fighting with my human flesh. So I truly am forced to empathize with people who, who, who sin, and people who struggle with distance. And I also empathize with what it feels like to suffer and what it feels like to have no hope. what it feels like. to despair, but at the same time, I also understand what it feels like to experience genuine powerful grace and to be redeemed and restored. I have physically been restored from that 52-pound person that was just basically flashover skeleton. So, I experienced both spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and physically. What to report on? Right? Mm-hmm. Oh, I mean, looking back, it's like, man, God is so good. And God is so wise. And he knows things beyond what my silly mind can comprehend. Because he says things like this within a faith is one this current period, but he seems so far ahead. And he put me in a position now, under he's great timing for a reason. And not because I was brilliant, not because I'm so smart and talented, but he, for whatever reason of his own choice to give me this beauty and purpose that I did not deserve.
Gage Arnold
Wow, Sophia, thank you for sharing that for your vulnerability for your confidence in your own story of naming what's true, and what's already there and the ways that you have seen God at work in the midst of your own weaknesses. I think oftentimes, we especially in the West, like to maximize comfort and minimize pain or discomfort or weakness. At all costs. And I yeah, I think it is just a wonderful testament to God's glorious grace that you have the story that you do, and that you have the perspective on it and the humility that you do. And then I'm sure it took time to get there. And sure you may not have arrived there immediately or overnight, per se. But yeah, there's so much there, but certainly, like the Lord's kindness and drawing you I think I love the fact that your story there's so many aspects, but certainly one of the main ones is that while you were stripped of your pride, and that's something that all of us, I'm sure, have experienced at some point or feel the Lord pressing against. knocking on the door of our own hearts is that he restored you back to a passion and then gifting that you had in your life to write to be able to tell stories but you are doing so with a reframed worldview and perspective not to make your own name great not so much to you know work for the most well-renowned publication that has the widest circulation is going to give you the greatest reader readership and is going to put you on a fast track to be an elite editor or whatever the main aspiration would have been. But it's that you, you're now motivated to love God and love your neighbor through those same giftings and that's your chief, like, objective list and then out of that if other things come if leadership positions present themselves, if stories are picked up and have a wide circulation, then great To God be the glory because there's no longer You're not seeking it for your own benefit or, or glory. And that's, I think that's a story for all of us to some degree, whether we work in business, whether we work in medicine, it is a reckoning and saying I'm not building my kingdom anymore. I'm, I'm contributing to God's kingdom that is already outworked.
Sophia Lee
And I mean, I just want to add something is that yes, God's truth to me up all my pride. Yeah, at the same time, I realized that I can't just rest on my testimony many years ago. Hmm. I still have to struggle with that pride. You know, that didn't completely die. I'm still a human being. So it's like, it's still a daily struggle of like, trying to bring glory to God. What are you focusing on on the glory of God and trying to live up my mission as humbly and as obedient as I can absolutely just rest on my laurels of my, my previous testimony years ago? Sure, sure. Any testimony?
Gage Arnold
Yeah, I've heard someone describe that as that's part of our glory and our garbage, you can get both. So you have the elements of certainly God's grace and the glory of that and him calling you and restoring you back to those places that your gift to that and then the garbage that still lurks in our hearts of the fact that you still struggle with pride and that's still a piece, therefore, you just like it's a piece there for me. And so part of a sort of walking in the way of the Lord is sort of walking in and being formed in Christ's likeness and looking more and more like Christ is, is dying to that regularly consistently. I've heard growth described as not like now you know you've stopped Doing this thing that you weren't supposed to be doing. But instead, it's a continual process of recognizing it quicker when you fall astray. And then not staying as long whenever you recognize it. And I find really, yeah, I found it really helpful. Because it doesn't make me feel like it doesn't allow you to fall into like the ditch of shame, saying, well, Darren, I thought I would be further along. At this point, why is pride still an issue for me in my work or in my life? And instead, you can look back and say, wow, I God's grace has brought me from this place to this place, and I still have such a long way to go and I'm still such a glorious mess. And I'm so glad to be on the journey. I can be a really recognizing that feels more honest and true to like what my human experiences versus I should be at B Why am I not at B? I'm still at a We had talked a little bit about media literacy. And so not everybody who, like, listens in as a journalist. Surely some, some people are writers or work in that sort of field. But when we think of like, media literacy, I know there's like a lot of there's a lot of feelings about the media in general. you'd mentioned fake news, which I think we all have maybe felt the tensions and the fallout of what does it mean to have a trustworthy publication? are what is true objectivity looks like is that just an illusion? Can we think still be trustworthy in spite of that? But on top of that, we were talking about how oftentimes I think you said 600 words is maybe like a limit of like, what most millennials or Gen Z years were like. Last 280 characters maybe? Yeah, yeah. So recognizing like the sort of short attention spans, and how that's affected, like how we think deeply about really complex issues. Tell me how you have reckoned with that what are some like pitfalls of like a lower media literacy? Why are people who are in the media important for helping others, like think deeply informed opinions? And how are you navigating that? In the midst of? Yeah, there's a lot there. So just say wherever you feel like.
Sophia Lee
Ah, okay, I'm gonna have to tackle it all either. Just I think. Okay, here's my use my beef, beef. Okay. Yeah, not really that people don't have time to read a 7000-word article. I don't always have time to read a 7000-word article, even if I wish I could write a 7000-word article. We all have our daily tasks. We have crazy busy. We have a lot of responsibilities, all that so I get that. Um, and also there are so many things going on in this world, like how am I going to be an expert in everything? Me, we have an immigration crisis of a refugee crisis. We have religious freedom. We have all we have, you know, drug issues like we have homelessness like we have all these issues that are very big and very complex. And right now, there are two issues that I focus primarily on and it's homelessness and the border crisis. And this is my full-time job, researching reporting on this and I can barely keep up with everything that's happening. Okay. So I sympathize that an ordinary non-Jonah's person, it's very hard to keep up with the news. I'm Really, completely understand even one issue it takes, it takes effort. Um, but my beef is people who are so quick to jump into maybe like this, the platforms or social media to rant on things that they obviously don't understand. And, and, and, and studying and having very uncivilized dialogue over whatever the past issue is even if they haven't really spent that time to really comprehend it from all angles. I remember like on a Facebook page, just this one guy who's always on that Facebook page trolling okay? And, and he loves the story, especially like on immigration issues, right and a lot on that and then one He commented, like, I barely have time to read on these things. And then and then my response was, well, you barely have time to really read all the material that's out there on this issue that you seem to be passionate about yet you have time to go online and, and troll people about it. That, to me is kind of a contradiction. And that's, that's what I mean. It's like, I know nobody can really fully follow every news that's happening. But if there's one that truly talks about your HUD
Sophia Lee
I'm read deep into it. Read from all sides, because it's not that that that news is trying to prove you wrong, it might just be that that news might add a bit of nuance to what you already know. But then there's this idea that if something doesn't really fit into what I, what my beliefs are, it seems almost like that person is attacking my beliefs. But that might not actually be true might just be an addition to your knowledge. Hmm. And there's more nuance, which we all greatly need. So, my belief is that if you don't have the time to actually really study an issue, maybe hold off on ranting about it on social media.
Gage Arnold
I think our social media feeds would be a much different place. If everyone heeded that advice. I certainly would hope that that would be the case. And I, I'm, I am struck by this idea, too, that if we I think sometimes I and I'm guilty of this too. I feel a need to be in the know of at least just an idea of what's happening in the world and certainly, I think that's a good thought and a good sentiment But it I wonder what it looks like for us to, to read deeply and read widely about things that we really do care about, and we're in passionate about and that really affect our lives, ie like the local things that are happening in the neighborhoods and the cities in which we live and inhabit. But then also, in those instances where we don't maybe know what's going on, and it gets brought up in conversation, being able to see those as instances of like opportunity to actually learn and posture ourselves as learners and listeners of others to hear their perspectives and to be to not see it as a sort of a mark on our permanent record of Well, you're not an informed citizen, so you must not care what's going on, but instead to say no, I'm a human person who has limitations. And I know there are some things that I've been able to, to really, really educate myself on and stay in In the know, but I also need my community to come around me those who have different perspectives and different viewpoints of the world to help enhance my own and to challenge my own. And vice versa for me to do the same for others. That feels ideal. I don't know that that is necessarily what the world looks like.
Sophia Lee
I think that's what church is supposed to look like. People have diverse opinions and backgrounds and experiences coming together by no choice of their own, but they, hey, we are stuck with each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. So I do not just tolerate your viewpoints, but really try to understand. I mean, I'm in a church where at one time we were having a neighborhood dinner for a church and a sitting next to a guy who was a Bernie Sanders supporter. And then and then there's another guy who calls himself a Marxist And to me, a Marxist Christian sounds like an oxymoron to me. By then I, we were just having a really interesting discussion where I told them to flat out I, I inherently disagree with you yet at the same time I understand your position and respect to the fact that you're ready to engage. And we just had a really actually fun conversation even though we came from very different viewpoints. It's not like I saw them last as a Christian because of what they believe. I think I disagree. But, but, you know, what I, I actually got a sense that they actually really did do a lot of thinking about what they believe and I respect them. Yeah, yeah. And especially rooted in that too, is like this, the like the doctrine of like the Imago Dei, the image of God, and that's sort of every human person being created in God's image and thus having like inherent dignity, just instill in them by the fact that they're You know, crafted by the Lord. And that changes the way that you view people that changes the way that you view others who have different opinions both inside and outside the church, especially inside the church. But yeah, I think that that's at the root of like a lot of the core motivations behind the daily work that other people engage with, and a lot of what we're trying to do it, let's see if W LA is trying to encourage others to use their sort of most plentiful resource which is their job, their vocation, what they're giving their life to, for 40 to 50 to 60 hours a week, and seeing that as an opportunity to love their neighbor, who is made in the image of God and to create flourishing wherever God has placed them to seek the peace of the city or the town or the neighborhood where God has placed them and to know that like that, that honors that cultural mandate that was given at the beginning of Genesis, I mean, everything that you're doing as a journalist is all tied up and wrapped up in that. And that would be the case if you were working at work if you're working at the world or if you're working at the LA Times or wherever it might be. It's using your gifts and skills and talents and abilities to love neighbor and love God. I mean, that's the very simple truncated version. Obviously, our own brokenness gets in the way of making that ideal but that's, that's what we aim for. That's what we strive for.
Sophia Lee
And the goal actually is pretty simple. It's just getting there. That's complicated.
Gage Arnold
Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Sophia and we hope you'll stick with us for our upcoming reflections on faith and work. If you haven't already, please do subscribe down below. And rate the podcast and spread the word to others on social media. It really, really, really does make a difference and helps us out a ton as we begin this podcast venture and continue to spread the word on it. So thank you if you've done so, and I'm grateful for your support. Again, this Podcast is a production of the Center for faith and work Los Angeles, a gospel-centered nonprofit that's dedicated to helping Angelenos reimagine their vocations to reshape culture, in Los Angeles and beyond. If you'd like to take the conversation further, feel free to visit faith and work la.com to find resources, videos, and blogs designed to help you reimagine your own work with the gospel in mind. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next time.