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Courtney Davis is committed to loving her students well. In her role as Assistant Professor of Communication Studies at Azusa Pacific University, Courtney helps her students realize the importance between communication and its impact on their own work and participation in the world. In this episode of the CFWLA Podcast, Courtney chronicles her inspiration for work in the higher-education space, speaks on the piety that accompanies a robust theology of work, and unpacks the challenges educators face in this cultural moment.
Courtney Wong Davis, Ph.D., is an assistant professor of communication studies at Azusa Pacific University, where she teaches organizational, small group, and professional communication. Her research interests include organizational socialization and assimilation, specifically focused on organizational entry and exit, in addition to intergenerational communication and organizational identification. Her scholarship has been published in the Western Journal of Communication, Communication Quarterly, and The Handbook of Intergroup Communication. Having fully enjoyed her collegiate experience at the University of Southern California and doctoral work at UC Santa Barbara, Davis is passionate about teaching and mentoring both in and outside the classroom, equipping undergraduate students for their post-collegiate endeavors, and encouraging personal and professional growth in her students.
QUOTABLE
On Discerning Career Callings: (14:50-15:22)
“If God is sovereign, then he’ll have complete understanding and providence over all these pieces move. But (he) also ordains every single one of our days, the very mundane and ordinary ones, and the very mundane and ordinary conversations and layer the mundane and ordinary to some really extraordinary things, both vocationally and otherwise and the opportunities to do what we get to do. We just forget sometimes.”
On Embracing and Implementing a Theology of Work: (25:09-25:58)
“As those of us who get to teach and work in this space about a theology of work we’ve got opportunities to encourage those who might not be affirmed by the world and that is a way in which we get to articulate our set-apartness. To speak to the receptionist, because they are actually the great gatekeepers of organizations, they have so much more power than the fact that they don’t even appear on organizational charts. There are just so many people that you get to see and inherently value by seeing them that is more distinctive because of a more robust theology of work.
On Pushing Back Against Darkness in Education: (38:41-39:24)
“There is a lot of work to be done there, to say, ‘You guys, if your grades are the most important thing you’re getting out of this class, you’ve missed it and I’ve failed you.’ There is a real working-against-the-culture of the education system to say it’s not just about checking boxes, but you get to decide what you are taking with you. It turns out that your college diploma will get you five bucks and a cup of coffee. But education is what you can actually articulate and live out once you leave the university space.”
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TRANSCRIPT
Transcription for the Faith + Work LA Podcast is done by AI software, which will occasionally include typos and other misspellings.
Courtney Davis
And so that there is a lot of work to be done there to say, you guys, if, if your grades are the most important thing you're getting out of this class, you've missed it and I have failed you. And there is a real working against that culture to say of the education system. It's not just about checking boxes, you get to decide what you take with you. And it turns out that your college diploma and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee. But what that degree is worth is really what it is that you can articulate and actually live out once you leave the university space.
Gage Arnold
Hello Welcome to the Faith and Work LA Podcast, a narrative effort from the Center for Faith and Work Los Angeles, that aims to lift up stories of everyday Christians impacting la through their daily work. My name is Gage Arnold, and I'll be your host. In this episode, we hear from Courtney Wong Davis. Courtney is an Associate Professor of Communication Studies at Azusa Pacific University, where she teaches organizational small group and professional communication. Her research interests include organizational socialization and assimilation, specifically focused on organizational entry and exit. In addition to intergenerational communication, and organizational identification. Courtney is committed to loving her students well in her role as Associate Professor of Communication Studies at Azusa Pacific University Courtney helps our students realize the importance between communication and its impact on their own work and participation in the world. In this episode of the faith and work la podcast, Courtney Chronicles her inspiration for work in the higher education space speaks on the piety that accompanies our robust theology of work and unpacks. The challenges educators face in this cultural moment. Courtney, I might add is also an ardent supporter of CFWLA and a member of our advisory board, we couldn't be more excited to share her story with you today. We're honored to have Courtney joining us, and we hope you enjoy the conversation. You're coming out of undergrad, what are your sort of hopes and aspirations? You always want to be an educator working in higher ed just kind of give me it doesn't have to be the 30-minute version, but maybe just a quick glimpse through how you got to be where you are nowadays.
Courtney Davis
Yeah, great. So graduated from the University of Southern California, USC, with two degrees in political science and communication. And I fell into communication, I really thought I wanted to step into the political space. And I was super fortunate to be raised with civic-minded parents, but not in a Christian home, and really engage with the community with a heart to serve. And so I saw politics as a way where I could make an impact on the world and the ways in which I could help people and serve people. I stepped into politics, both on the policy side and state governments for a little bit with an assembly member. Some of them are Mike Gordon, El Segundo, and Southern California, and he, unfortunately, died in office. And that moved me on to the political side, helping run a statewide campaign for state senator Deborah Bowen, who then ran for Secretary of State for the state of California. And I was literally at Only four-year-old and number two on this political campaign because for a statewide race, which was pretty remarkable and exciting, I was really grateful for the mentorship of the campaign director who really said, Courtney, just go raise a bunch of money. And I said I've never done this before. She said, you just got to get off the phone and start asking, and that was one thing that was really big for me. And yet at the same time, politics was a place where I said leavers belonged, and yet it wasn't quite what I thought I was supposed to dedicate my life to. So I started looking into masters of higher ed programs, with the desire to pursue mentorship in the college environment. having committed in my life to follow Christ in the context of a sorority at USC, I was a 21-year-old college Junior, I knew the value of mentorship, and I knew the value of adults speaking into my life and the ways in which the college setting was remarkably true. formational for me, and so I thought I was going to do a master's in higher ed and I had a remarkably divinely appointed conversation with the Dean of the business school at USC. And I said to Jim Ellis, I said, Jim, would you write me a letter of recommendation, and he said, Only if you also applied to a Ph. D. program. Now, my dad has a Ph.D. in cellular and molecular biology. And that is enough of a deterrent to even consider a Ph.D. program. But he made a compelling argument to me that said, he said, Courtney, I see that you could potentially climb an administrative ladder at a college or university. And if you were to go pursue Student Affairs or higher ed, you'd eventually need a doctoral degree. At the end of the day. He said, What if you could get your doctor by the time you're 30? Would you at least look go look into some Ph.D. programs, and that was a providential conversation? And so I looked into Ph.D. programs I got into UC Santa Barbara, one of the top three programs in organization Communication which is eventually at my Ph.D. is in and the Lord made a way. And so even in the acknowledgments of my dissertation, it literally was grace upon grace. This work and it was very compelling for me I knew it was an act of obedience, adaptive, joyful obedience to do a Ph.D., but was never because the end goal was to become a professor. So, so all of this is super interesting because I think that my initial I thought as a young 22-year-old, recent college grad to make an impact via mentorship is ultimately what I get to do as a college professor now. And that's not the whole of my work. Clearly. It was actually at the annual conference, the CFWLA conference last year or this year 2019 when Jeremy treat who said that, he said, Christian is a better now than it is an adjective, and not so resonated with me This idea that I'm not just a Christian who happens to teach I'm not just a Christian professor, but that my professorship ought to be most excellent and most diligent, and yet also really good rhythms abreast and how do we do that and really sustainable ways. And that is an incredible joy. Now to be, yeah, I'm Associate Professor I get to do research. I get to write books, I get to write research and the academic markets but also, writing a book was Omdurman called leading slugger except thrive and using social science research to figure out how small groups can actually contribute to individual spiritual growth. And so there's just really fun things that I get to do. that teaching is certainly part of it. So study small groups, I study organizations and the ways in which I get to be a part of their sending. So I think I'll just kind of finished this short certain short-ish story. downs here As a Christian writer, in 2018, spoke at if gathering. And she said that discipleship, she defined discipleship as meeting someone on the way to where they're going and offering them something. And that is, I think that really resonates with what it is that I get to do is that I get to use theory around organizations and help students to see that the storyline of Scripture, every organization is inherently good and yet also entirely broken by sin. And when you put a whole bunch of broken people together, you have a very, very broken organization. And yet that is a remarkable space, to participate with God and the work that he's doing to redeem workspaces and to redeem the world, for the flourishing of cities and a whole lot of things. But how do we help students understand how organizational change happens? How do we help them understand with great humility that organizations are not made for individuals And so then they don't walk into workplaces expecting for an organization to perfectly see them and to perfectly value everything that they do, that they are able to use every spiritual gift and talent that the Lord's given them, that ultimately it's not about them. It's not about the individual. And so there's some incredible work that I get to do. And yet at the same time, it continues to go back to mentorship and discipleship. And, and if I were to step out of this academic role, I feel super confident that the Lord would continue to put something new and different. And I think there's been a lot of work done to say that you don't have just one calling and so there is a lot to be said about the opportunity to hold what it is that the Lord's giving you. Almost like a bucket, a place where you get to do this, but if you ever pulled me out of this bucket, the really fun part is I've every confidence in the Lord. To provide me other opportunities where I get to continue to live out the value in that sort of work.
Gage Arnold
Mm-hmm. That is awesome. I love your insights. And I love his interest in your thinking about calling there your comments about calling there towards the end. I've been wrestling with that a lot, too. And a lot of folks that I've talked to on some of these podcasts have had very similar. Yeah, they've just wrestled with it in some encouragement that I think they've been able to land with throughout the time that we've spoken has been, like unpacking the difference between calling and assignment. And so oftentimes calling is wanting to find out what I need to do with my life, which I'm sure you often get with college students who come through your classroom. You got it. Yeah. And so being able to separate that and say you are called to be image-bearer of God, you're called to be a good neighbor, someone who seeks to honor and glorify the Lord and all that they say and do. And so once you like, extrapolate out the calling aspect and say this is like you're called to be Courtney like I'm called to be Gage, you're called to be you. And the distinct ways that God has made you and created informs you. And out of that, there are different assignments that you're going to have throughout your life. And so, themes tend to arise as you explore and go through your life journey and are sensitive to the peaks and valleys that the Lord brings you through. But I think separating those two has been helpful for me in saying, I'm called to be, among other things, a storyteller you know, I went to journalism school. I like other people's stories, like getting Hear them like getting to write them. I tell stories, even in the ways that I pursuing pastoral ministry that's I'm getting to tell the story of the Bible. And so but also there's been a lot of different assignments and ways that that's been brought to bear. So curious if you have any thoughts on any of that?
Courtney Davis
Yeah, I think I'd offer two things. One, Andy crouch wrote a very brief article called the three callings are Christian and to say the first calling is to indeed bear the image of God. And the second is to restore the image of God. And the third he calls a contingent calling. And that is whatever we are going to do with today, which I really appreciate. So really, I think picks up on that calling, but also the assignment. And then I would say the really fun part is that this was not my original assignment design, but I get to share it and get to use it is in our senior capstone course. Helping students to write out their life stories. And, I'm sorry, write out their story in, in giftings, and in stories, and so what are the stories that have impacted students? What stories have they lived out of the course of their life? And how does that direct their attention to a larger issue in the world? And it's and then how do you make an impact in some small way on that larger issue? And the really fun part is to see threads among students’ lives to say, Gosh, I could tell you some really cool stories, but one is a student who her father was a police officer who was killed in the line of duty. And she had every desire she's a she was a communication major, and really had the heart to become she said, I really want to be a detective. I really want to honor my dad's legacy. I'd like to pursue law enforcement. I know that being a woman in the law enforcement story is really challenging. She said, I really want to be a detective. And I said, well, what's under that? I said, because what happens if you believe that that's what the Lord has called you to become a detective? But you actually never make detective? Does that mean that you didn't discern God's calling correctly? Did you fall short? I just feel like that opens up a whole lot of questions when we tie our calling, to job titles and positions. So I said, Tell me a little bit more about what's behind that. I said, Why do you want to be a detective? What is that about? And she said, I just, I think I really see that I have the potential to help families find one more piece to provide closure in some really tragic situations. The wildest part and the Lord has done this time and time again. But what came out of my mouth I did not pray, meditate. What came out of my mouth was Daniel Do you do puzzles? And she said all the time? I said you're a college senior. How many puzzles do you have in your room? your apartment, she said probably Five I said and how regularly do you do them? She said very regularly. I said, so then is it possible that on a number of different levels, you've always been about trying to make one more piece of the puzzle come together? I said, What would happen if you understood that that was maybe part of it, then maybe it's becoming a detective. But maybe it's also pursuing the law side of this. That's another way in which you help put pieces together What if, yes, it might have to do with the justice system and law enforcement, but what are the ways in which you consider your volunteer work and the ways in which she has invested in the Latino Latina community as a blonde white woman is just like, really remarkable to see that threaded through so many areas of her life and so to start putting language for students around one of the threads one of the ways in which the Lord has directed their steps in their story She's sort of illuminate, illuminate some larger issue that can be manifested in so many different types of careers and industries. And that's super fun. And so to help students start to articulate that I am reading my final set of papers, but I have a student said I really didn't have a home. And creating home spaces is what I want my life to be about. Having students say I see brokenness in mental health. And that has affected me not myself personally. But I start to see the effects of mental health on family members, how do we start to support the family members who are so much attention is on the people who struggle with mental health issues, but what about the others who are helping and supporting those walking through mental health struggle and so it's really fun to start to see that and opening up students understanding of what they can do and what is the core Why. So I know a lot of people have started talking about like, what is your WHY? But when you understand your why you'll do a whole lot that you wouldn't necessarily choose to do, but because you know why you're doing it?
Gage Arnold
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Your story is grounded in something much more than just immediate status, satisfaction, or immediate benefit. You're sort of seeing the grander narrative. Or if you want a tie in your threads, you're really seeing the tapestry, like you can see the picture that's actually being woven rather than just these three individual pieces of yarn or strand.
Courtney Davis
Right. If God is sovereign, then he'll have complete understanding and provenance over the ways in which all these pieces move, but also ordains every single one of our days and the very mundane and ordinary ones and the very mundane ordinary conversations. And lay are mundane and the ordinary. See some really extraordinary things, occasionally and otherwise, and the opportunities to do what we get to do. We just forget sometimes.
Gage Arnold
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a very encouraging word for anybody who might be in a job assignment. That is not what they thought they'd be doing. And they may not feel fully satisfied with it, or may just be asking the question, how is this? Am I being deficient as a human or as a follower of the Lord, if I'm not working in my preferred capacity, and so things like this, I think help to give credence to this idea that all work matters to God? And that's a very easy blanket statement gets said often if you spend five seconds in faith in work blog or near somebody who works in these, these worlds, but certainly, this helps to undergird that a bit more. And to actually provide some like context for it.
Courtney Davis
Yeah, and I think when we start to say that, goodness, it's not just about what you're doing, but that systemically we are connected to one another. And so all work matters not just because of my work matters because what I'm actually doing Yes, that's true. But also what I get to do is inherently connected to my six and four-year-olds, school teachers and I, I literally cried my last day of class a couple Yeah, last day of classes semester, because I started to make my last shot at the students to say, communication organization and the ways in which we work matters. So I started to tell the story that when we first got to Azusa Pacific University, it was July 2015. And I was when I started in August 2015, I was 33 weeks pregnant with my now four-year-old and I said when I dropped off Luke my two year old to full time, preschool for the first time ever. I learned that his preschool teacher, Miss Rosie had three kids of her own. And her mother in law would take her three kids to elementary school and middle school so that Miss Rosie could be at the preschool to receive my kiddo Luke at eight o'clock in the morning. And I said, isn't it remarkable? graduating seniors that as you walk across the stage on commencement day, that actually part of your story is inherently connected to miss Rosie's mother in law, who might find her work quite mundane, not necessarily paid or unpaid but she is responsible for transporting three of her grandkids to and from school soccer practice football, practice dance, recitals, all these things and I said, I get to do what I get to do because Miss Rosie is so faithful and obedient to do what she's been asked to do. Miss Rosie his mother in law is faithful to do what she has been asked to do. And with great, I think it is a gift of the Lord for us not to know the impact we have on other people fairly quickly become quite puffed up and prideful about what it is that we've been asked to do. But the sending of the students and the work that I get to do is really because I know my kids are well cared for, for if my kids are not well cared for. I like my work but I think it quickly it quickly I don't even know the word is but it out takes a backseat. Yeah, there's a reprioritization it is and so when you see this systemically and I went to class, which is not my normal ml and I think if students hear this podcast, they will surely laugh and but we say gosh, then I get to send students out into the world then this Rosie's mother in law is connected to the ways in which people will live out their faith in secular and vocational ministry places. And that is an incredible thing. I'm going to guess that's not what Miss Rosie thinks as a preschool teacher of two-year-olds. It's not a mother in law things, who is responsible for transporting children and yet you start to go well, that's incredible. That's really remarkable. And I have to remind my husband quite often, he's a web developer and graphic designer and has a little studio in Azusa Easter studios and, and yet, he says sometimes it is just tedious to be on the computer programming side of websites. And yet the work that his clients do he's a part of, and how do we start to see in a very individualistic culture, the US how do we start to see more of our work as much more collective and really, that so many people make my work possible? I help make others work possible as well, then suddenly, the story is really truly a much better reflection of what God is doing the world than what I individually and contributing.
Gage Arnold
That's a good word. Wow. I hope and pray that that would be embraced by many others. Because I think that's such that's such a needed reframing of what it's like to be a part of a system and to understand that in an individualistic cultural moment where everybody has their six social media profiles, and there's just it's just very easy to fall into the meanness of things that there would be no individualist individualism without the collectivism that helps make that possible, and so on. I mean, especially with a lot of your work, imagine around organizational communication you acutely are aware of the interconnectedness and the systems theory that's always going on with the way that we interact, not just communication-wise, but I'm sure the way that we work in the way that we live in the way that society functions as a whole.
Courtney Davis
Yeah, I think we then you know, and I see it through the eyes of a six-year-old, the four-year-old, I tell the students or tell the story around campus with some regularity, but my six-year-old and four-year-old boys love the trash truck. They love the trash truck drivers. They're there on my street every Monday morning. And the fact that we know our trash truck drivers, and we're here during the summer and we're all home. My kids are at home. They'll run water out to the street because it's so blistering hot in Southern California, but they make our life work. And yet, you know, the really remarkable part of those stories Gage is that in Santa Barbara, where we live Before we were in the Azusa Glendora area. We lived in Santa Barbara we got snow or trash truck driver there pretty well too. And Luke was then under the age of two. And at some point, my husband went out to the street and asked our trash truck driver like so how often are you greeted? The way that my son Luke greets you? And his answer was the astounding gauge. He said, every other block. And here you know, we have this conception of trash truck drivers being low on the socio, whatever spectrum of value in the world and what we consider to be good work and all of these things, good jobs, and yet, it's entirely possible that trash truck drivers are the people who get the most amount of accolade and praise every other block of their job gauge, find me a job where somebody actually is appreciative of your work. Literally every three minutes on a job in the world. I joke with you Like you don't even give me applause at the end of every lecture, let alone at the end of the class. And maybe you have gratitude, but you certainly don't show it. And that's okay. I don't do it for you. But here we have this example of garbage collectors. And we neglect to see the great joy and beauty in the world that they experience the waves and shares and enjoy every child under the age of five on the face of every child under the age of five. It's remarkable. And we start to elevate positions and society and work and jobs and ways that we wouldn't necessarily think about, you know, people who check us out at the grocery store. That is if we actually go to the grocery store, but the people that deliver groceries and say, Gosh, we really need to be more grateful for the ways in which other people's work helps make our lives work. And then We then get opportunities to decide where our meaning where the meaning of our work comes into play as well.
Gage Arnold
Absolutely, even as you were speaking, gratitude just kept popping in my mind of like, humility is the great leveler of the playing field. And especially when you see the grandeur of what makes your life work, the hopeful responses that you would be humbled by that and be driven to gratitude for all those who do serve who bring me packages to work for ups to make sure that we have our Christmas gifts on time. And there's just yeah, there's so much that goes into that. And I, I think we would all do well to cultivate a bit more gratitude in our own lives for the work that we are privileged to get to do. If you really boil it down,
Courtney Davis
well and then as those of us who get to teach and work in this face and really talk about a theology of work and all of these, we get opportunities to encourage those who might not be affirmed by the world. And that is a way in which we get to articulate our set-apartness. You speak to the receptionist because they actually are the great gatekeepers of organizations, they have so much more power than the fact that they don't even appear on organizational charts. You know, there are just so many people that you get to see and inherently value by seeing that is indeed distinctive. Because of a more robust theology of work.
Gage Arnold
Yeah. When you think about so what you're saying that kind of sparked this idea of like, salt-like salt and light and how that's how like believers are called to work. Live and operate in culture and in the world, specifically in their workplace where they spend the most amount. I mean, that's the most staying power and that they have to offer to the world. And so, as you think about the ideas of being salt and light, what does that look like for you as a university professor in higher ed, um, you touched on some of this already, but maybe what comes to mind in that regard?
Courtney Davis
I think a couple of things come to mind that I'm gathering my thoughts.
I think the first thing that comes to my mind has to do with being purposely placed in our workplaces and really just pick up on what you just shared is an exercise I do in class regularly is I want you to calculate after you graduate from college, what time do you wake up? And what time do you leave the house for work? And how long are you at work and what time do you get home and what time you went to bed And at best, the students are estimating at best. I'm spending an equal amount of time working as I am at home with the people that I choose to hitch my life for the rest of my life. And when you start to say that I think the church has done well to say that relationships, marriage, certainly Parenthood, certainly, that is part of the ways in which the Lord is safe to find individuals. But if we say that half of our day at work is not also part of our sanctification, we've missed it, that a workplace is a place of our sanctification. And so how do we start to invest in that place, trusting that the Lord is sovereign and uses nonbelievers in our life to grow us and shape us more into the image of who God is, and that is in a really broken workplace was really broken people who don't operate the way that we want them to? I think a student was tech words that I shared and really helped me out understand my understanding, in a more refined way. But she said last week of class, she said, I have learned that I make a workplace more broken by stepping into it. And yet, in the midst of brokenness, we get to be salt and light, as you say, and is there a hope that we get to participate with God and the work that he's doing and not just relationally? But that is my vocation, I want to say, I want to be a really compelling, thoughtful, thought-provoking professor, regardless of my faith, I want but because of my faith, I want to be thoughtful and transformative and theoretically based and all of those things. Yet do it in a way that we demonstrate to other people that they're one of the most. One of the things I've said to students. I say what would happen if Christian became known for being the most diligent, most rested, and most patient workers in the world.
Courtney Davis
And each one of those is remarkably countercultural. What would happen if we were the most diligent? And I think, I think Christians, we think sometimes there's a corner market on integrity. But how do we actually demonstrate diligence and the work that we're doing? How do we actually work hard? Because the work is worth doing? How is it that we can do that from a place not necessarily from a place of rest, but that we also rest? Well, we're willing to put down our work, because we know that our identity is not in what we produce, and not in our job title and not in what we do. But we can put it down and we can say, No, I don't work on the weekends or no, not out of a legalistic place, but to say there is a God-given place for rest and Sabbath silence And solitude and all of those, all of those things and then patience. And I think patience is now one of the most counter-cultural things we can demonstrate in the world is really, I think it's Jefferson, Becky, and John Mark Kohler, who's talked more recently about fighting hustle and ending Hurry, and, and how do we become some of the most patient people and not just become but then become known for being the most patient people? And what would happen if we manifest all three of those qualities in their workplaces? That to me, is a remarkable opportunity to be solid in life and then you go to three, and, and when the Word of God says, you know, always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that you profess, but do so with gentleness and respect. It implies a question. So when we live our lives and diligently and we live our work lives diligently, rest, rest in its proper place, being remarkably patient, even Canada. Culturally so it will prompt a question. And that is where, you know, I get to encourage all of us, really, but if somebody asks you a question to be bold enough to tell them, that the reason why I get to turn off my email at 6 pm on Friday, and don't pick up on Monday morning, that reason why I'm going to choose to do a little bit more on this project, even though it's not what is required, even though I'm going to be patient because I don't have what I need from my coworker to do the thing that I'm supposed to be doing and I'm willing to wait patiently for that and not. Yeah, other sorts of ways. It's gonna prompt questions. And then I say it is because my identity is not in any of this. My identity is in the very nature of salvation that God has ultimately saved me and that is a remarkable, remarkable gift. And I can be freer because I know Jesus, and my students oftentimes, so just say, so when people ask you questions, just say, I love Jesus. Just three words. I love Jesus to start that conversation. Especially if they asked you, you're not being offensive if they asked, hey, why do you do that? Yeah, do I love Jesus and Jesus really frees me to not have as much of my identity in what I produce, or in the opinions of other people in the world standards for success. Or even you know, I don't feel compelled to need to gossip about the boss or talk down about other people and I want to work as freely as I can, knowing that I have been saved by great grace.
Gage Arnold
Mm-hmm. The phrase that kept coming to my mind as you were talking to that was like living invitation-only So you're inviting conversation, you're inviting questions, because you're learning distinctly, because you're, and that's sort of one of the aspects of like salt, like salt kind of serves two purposes. It's like an enhancer. So like, it brings out the distinct flavors of something. It enhances it, it makes it better. But it also works as a preservative, especially like in times where it's like preserving meat, you know, it's and so I think seeing the lens of your work, and really just not to boil it down just here. I mean, we focus on that because that's one of our big emphases. But certainly, just living the Christian life, like the gospel not only gives you hope, just in general but then shows you how to live so that sort of a hope that's grounded in a story that you're grafted into and part of that is seeing that That's the and even harkening back to what Andy Cratchit said, that's sort of what it's like to live as like an agent of reconciliation, an agent of redemption in whatever capacity God has placed you in. Be it a university professor, be it a garbage truck driver who's going around Southern California, wherever you fall on the vocational spectrum, whatever it is that you're doing, you have an opportunity to live invitation only to invite those questions. And to have others and to be able to provide a sort of bear witness to the hope that actually is driving all of those like activities in the world.
Courtney Davis
Yeah, and I think it would be remiss to neglect the work that is not paid either. So I think about Dear Dear friends and living out lives of stay at home parents and I always say when you have more than two kids in the home, you are outnumbered Additionally, you know, I've got two adorable really lovable but to unrepentant senators in my home, her six and four years old. And to say that to you is really good work and difficult work and to share and be salt and light in homes and in the grocery stores and, and all of those, you know public spaces in our neighborhoods and all of those places and yes and yes and yes.
Gage Arnold
Yeah, that applies so much more so as well in this space. I kind of wanted a little bit. So we've been talking about maybe some of the good aspects of what it's like to sort of life in the world or what the hopeful aspects of them but there are thistles and thorns that I'm sure you experienced and what you do as a professor and you don't have to get, you know, overly roast anything in general. But I would love to if you could share just even a couple of things that are difficult, or a waste you see sort of the darkness and it could be in the higher education industry at large. This doesn't just have to be your context. But yeah, where do you feel the effects of sin just even in the system of higher ed? And how, how do you reckon with that?
Courtney Davis
Yeah, when I think systemically about the type of students who walk into my classroom, we remember very quickly that the K to 12 education system is remarkably broken. And Lord is still redeeming that space and there are incredible people who are doing that work in that space. But I think sometimes it produces a checkbox mentality for students, and they've lived so much of their life. In high school, for example, start with high school and they have all these graduations required. And they just needed to get it done so that they can move on to college. And so when you get to the university setting, and I think about and I love working with my 400 level students, those who have one foot out the door, and I oftentimes see that it feels like many of them are literally sprinting off a cliff, they just don't know it. A colleague of mine just recounted a story just last week. I said, you know, that Imagine if you're on an airplane, and the pilot comes, you know, on the intercom and says, good news and bad news. The bad news is, we're lost. But the good news is we're making really good time. And I think sometimes college students are, yeah, if you think about that, you kind of say, Gosh, yeah, there are a lot of students who have no idea what they're doing. They have no idea what they're doing, why they're doing it. Some of them don't necessarily know the Lord acknowledged a little At any of those things, and yet they say, but I just need to graduate on time. And for what, because that sort of work ethic over the course of a high school and college career at best being eight years and maybe even longer, what sorts of workers does that produce? And it's no wonder that we in turn to workplaces where people are trying to do the minimum amount of work required, trying to get the most out of everything that they can, and so that there is a lot of work to be done there to say, you guys if, if your grades are the most important thing you're getting out of this class, you've missed it and I have failed you. And there is a real working against the culture to say of the education system. It's not just about checking boxes. You get to decide what you take with you. And it turns out that your college diploma and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee. But what that degree is worth is really what it is that you can articulate and actually live out once you leave the university space. So I think the educational system has a lot of work to do. to really start to say learning actually is, especially for believers to say we get an opportunity to learn more about God and His creation, whether or not it's in a Christian education system or not. But what a marvelous thing to see God's creation and to examine and understand and investigate in really specific ways. But that is laden with great brokenness in a system that has created is contributing to individuals needing to check things off in order to get to the next thing. Mm-hmm.
Gage Arnold
Yeah.
Courtney Davis
So I think that's maybe the one that comes to mind most readily. Mm-hmm. And we Like I said, I yeah, I haven't had I've not desired to be a professor. It's not my long lifelong goal. And so and, but these are the things that I start to see and start to, yeah, become more hopeful about the work that we get to do. Because we get to share a life with these students. And to tell them your identity is not in your success, your identity is not in your grades. Your identity is not in other evaluations of you. But ultimately, you get to decide, you get to decide what work is meaningful. You get to decide what work matters to you. You get to decide how you spend your time. And that that has a systemic effect as well. And I see brokenness and you know, you can talk about power structures in organizations and workplaces. The church is just as broken as every other organization. And yeah, and yeah, how do we walk in with great humility to Say yeah, we're going to plant our flag here and my opponent will commit as an at our church we call it to covenant partnership, but membership is we're going to say out we're going to hit your life to this place. And it's broken and it's led by broken people but your God is doing something the Holy Spirit is in each one of us. And we have important work to do for if you are looking for a perfect organization, you shall not find it.
Gage Arnold
Yes, that is a good word that everyone needs to hear is that there are no perfect churches and no perfect pastors and no perfect bosses. And that is your review.
Courtney Davis
Yeah, you hear a message from the pulpit on a Sunday and you become enraged and you say I'm leaving, I'm done. And you just know the church has a family. We're supposed to work these things out, have a conversation and then work that out. Don't push away from the table. Because what you're saying is that you've not met, you've not measured up to my measure of action. And the same with the workplace. Those here job hop and go from oneness industry and job to another and another and another, especially after college graduation. They, it's almost as if you if you're seeking satisfaction, you will never find it. But you have the satisfaction you will sit in places a lot longer than you ever expected to. And that is where the Lord can do some incredible work in you, in addition to through you. And that is, yeah, a real sort of fun thing that you get to do because you understand the brokenness of the systems in which we are embedded.
Gage Arnold
Yeah, it's so true. Well, I want to be mindful of your time. And so I thought maybe one last question a little more lighthearted than what are the ways that we feel hopeless about the world sometimes. So as you think about the ways that your faith influences what you do, when you think about higher ed in general, kind of what's your hope and your vision for what it can look like, as you kind of plant your flag here and say, this is where I'm gonna be as long as the Lord has me and yeah, I guess what is the gospel and fused view of higher ed, kind of look like for you and what's your hope for? how that plays out?
Courtney Davis
Yeah, and you take care of that for possibly say, Gosh, the Lord created knowledge to be good and knowledgeable and much better than knowledge is wisdom and colleges and universities, I hope is a place where we get to cultivate that knowledge and wisdom. Of course, broken brokenness is yes. ubiquitous in this place, and You have a lot of ego on the faculty side, you get a lot of Yeah, financial aid is just a complete disaster and trying to make education work. But yeah, the hope for me and the work that I get to do is that students know God more trust God more understand His Word to be ultimately more true in their life than when they first stepped foot here. And the ways Yeah, I think I have, more recently a vision of graduates walking across the commencement stage, more whole than they were when they first arrived. And that pursuit of wholeness in Christ, certainly as not only, you know, at the higher ed institution, and a lot of Christian colleges and universities, but what would happen if we started to see knowledge and the cultivation of knowledge and information as a way in which wisdom is called Be there. And then that wisdom is made manifest in our lives as we become more whole people in who Christ is making us in the process of making us to become.
Gage Arnold
Welcome back. We hope you enjoyed the conversation with Courtney and we hope you'll stick around with us for our upcoming reflections on faith and work. If you haven't already, again, I know many of you have and it's made a huge impact. Please subscribe, download rate and review the podcast and spread the word to others on social media through any of the videos or things that have been shared with it. It really makes a huge difference and helps us out a ton and we really do appreciate that. as well. This Podcast is a production of the Center for Faith and Work Los Angeles. The Gospel-centered nonprofit dedicated to helping you Angelenos reimagine their vocations to reshape culture, in Los Angeles and beyond. If you'd like to take the conversation further, again, feel free to visit faithandworkla.com to find some of our resources, videos, blogs, events that are designed to help you reimagine your own work with the gospel in mind. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next time.